I’m pretty good with coming up with new words (I’m SURE I invented the Spork and it’s cousin the Foon over 30 years ago), but the one I really wish I could claim these days is Pergraniteel. You could easily use it to refer to almost every "renovated" listing on the market, and to a goodly number of new developer homes, too. Pergo, Granite, Stainless Steel – why are these out new upgrade standards?
So how is laminate flooring an upgrade from anything? It is a picture of wood sandwiched in plastic. If you are using the good stuff, you can do decent hardwood or bamboo for the same price. Cork and recycled rubber are way cool, and are price competitive with laminate.
So what decorinna died and made granite the default standard of excellence in kitchen design? It isn’t maintenance free as claimed, and is generally very poorly installed (what’s with the oak corbels used to prop up 90% of the breakfast bars?). Get creative. If you don’t mind the maintenance, honed slate is cheaper and beautiful. Composite materials like Silastone are cheaper and easier to keep up. Remember the lab top from your chemistry class that stood up to anything? Yep, easily available for kitchens, as are variants made of recycled paper.
So stainless – what a nightmare to keep looking "stainless". Does anyone believe a white dishwasher is worse at cleaning dishes that a stainless unit at twice the price?
The $1200 washing machine – I’ll save one that for later. Mention Wolfe or Viking ranges and I’ll go screaming into the night.
smarten
It’s Wolf Mike. Or as we like to affectionately call it, Wolfie.
Sully
I’m not sure what your beef is with granite, maybe you’ve seen too much of it, but the Wolf ranges ….jeez! How many times do you need to cook a 5 gallon bucket of beans or bake a 50 lb turkey?
Derrick
I don’t see anything wrong with granite? You can find granite in well over 250 completely DIfferent colors and styles. Perhaps you have just seen too much absolute black granite?
in respect to stainless steel dishwasher over a white one.. the price is NOT double.
Derrick
One more thing. I have NEVER in my life heard anyone tell me that granite is maintenance free. thats just silly.
MIke Van H
Hmmm this requires some quick research to end the debate. At Sears.com, a Kenmore Elite White 24 inch built in dishwasher is $799. A Stainless Steel Kenmore Elite 24 inch Built In dishwasher is $1499.
I googled ‘Granite countertops are maintenance free’ and dozens of sites came back claiming it is…so SOME people are saying that.
Perhaps Mike is suggesting in the age of 7% homes selling, a litle uniqueness is golden.
For those of you who are improving your home just for yourself (and not resale value) I used this great counter-mold stuff where they come in, and form a shape that sets right on top of your old counter, and looks like Granite but it’s not and its much cheaper, and if you get tired of it, the entire counter comes right off and your under-counter is still intact and fine. Obviously this does nothing for resale value, but for those on a budget who can’t afford Granite, it’s a great option.
2sleepy
I disagree with you on much of what you said,
Regarding countertop materials:
http://www.nuancestoneworks.com/Countertops/StoneProsAndCons.htm
http://www.countertopskey.com/
http://www.diylife.com/2008/02/22/pre-fab-granite-counters-on-the-cheap/
Flooring materials
I do agree with the Pergo thing, I see no reason a person would opt for that over hardwood, but cork its seems the verdict is still out http://parents.berkeley.edu/recommend/home/corkfloors.html
so personally I would not rush out to buy it. Recycled rubber? http://www.gerbertltd.com/rubberflooring.htm
nice for a weight room I guess…
Stainless steel appliances? I think they look much better than white and the cost difference is nowhere close to what you quoted. An example from Lowes, Kitchenaid 24.8 cu ft.refrigerator $1618 SS Refrigerator $1888
2sleepy
Mike, I think that on the Sears site you are comparing different models, try this:
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02213153000P?vName=Appliances&cName=Dishwashers&sName=Built-In+Dishwashers&filter=Brand%7CKenmore+Elite
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02213152000P?vName=Appliances&cName=Dishwashers&sName=Built-In+Dishwashers
when comparing the same model stainless steel is $200 more.
2sleepy
I haven’t posted this much on this blog for months, but regarding granite, the maintenance of it depends upon the density of the granite, I have tan-brown granite which is very dense and does not require sealing, and is as ‘maintenance free’ as any counter material that I have had in the past
http://www.galaxycountertops.com/images/granite/granitecolors/TanBrown.jpg
Gina
I redid my kitchen and bathrooms so I’ve done quite a bit of research on all this.
There ARE maintenance-free granites. They are the denser ones that don’t need sealing. But there are many granites that with an annual quick sealing with the right product, are practically maintenance-free. (Sealing is less work than waxing your car.)
Honed slate would be a beeyotch as a kitchen counter due to staining. Products like Silestone and Corian can be just as pricey as granite. Sometimes more so. Granite is beautiful and natural and no 2 slabs are the same. I have one that has aqua blue gem-like inclusions that twinkle at me every day – I call it My Preciousss.
Pergo and other laminates have come a long way. They last longer, are very durable, and now come in hundreds of looks. They are easier and cheaper to install than wood.
All of this design stuff is bound to change – you know – planned obsolescence. Otherwise how would the industries make money? LOL.
Dave Blockhus
Mike,
Granite and stainless steel appliances are primarily bought to boost the homeowner’s image and secondarily bought to be useful/practical. Why would someone spend $4,200 on a six burner stove top when they could get the same “use” out of one for less than half the cost.
It’s similar to the short bald guy with small feet (apologies to all short, hair challenged men with size 8 shoes) buying the $45,000 Mercedes over the $25,000 Toyota. It’s all image baby!
Reno Ignoramus
Truer words were never spoken Dave. How did the human species ever survive when it had to live with ceramic tile kitchen counters?
As that famous Chase agent, Andre Agassi, used to say: “image is everything”.
MIke Van H
lol oh man I would feel guilty owning a range that expensive. I would actually have to go take cooking lessons to use it just to justify its cost.
One kind of floor I don’t recommend is Douglas Fir. My bungalow has Douglas Fir flooring, which isnt as soft as pine but pretty close. Such a pain. The main reason I am keeping it in is it was covered up for decades with linoleum and carpet on top, so its in near perfect condition (after hours of restoration) and the boards are so long that single boards traverse from my office to the dining room, about 25 feet. It’s local wood cut way back in the day.
Back2Basics
Yea Mike!!
Finally someone with my same sentiments! It’s amazing to me how hyper-sensitive people can get defending their granite and stainless steel. Who’s the kitchen tyrant that deemed anything other than granite/stainless as “lesser” anyway?
I am all about function, easy maintenance, and sustainability on a budget. The whole status symbol of what granite stands for has always turned me off, not to mention how unsustainable it is to quarry and transport these huge slabs from who knows where. Plus, with my four kids’ fingerprints, stainless steel would be a complete nightmare.
You better believe as I look for a home, I’ll steer TOWARD the functional, but “lesser” kitchens. Yes, give me your white appliances and your formica, and I’ll show you someone who is quite content in an efficient space while saving thousands (and thousands) of bucks.
Gina
Noone “needs” granite just like noone “needs” more space than a bed can fit in. We could all live in Yurts, share kitchens and bathrooms, and carpool or take busses and lessen our “global footprints” too but what fun would that be?
You also sound like guys who don’t cook and have never scrubbed dirty grout on a old tile kitchen countertop, LOL.
If you live in an older home and the kitchen is falling apart (as are many 50s and 60s kitchens in my neighborhood), you need to fix it. If you have the resources that usually means a partial or total remodel. Upon embarking on such a remodel, you find the options of the times and make your choices. Part of owning a home is to maintain it and keep it nice, IMO. Plus? I hate grout.
DERRICK
I have dealt with formica counter-tops in the past and they are beyond cheap, not to mention VERY ugly.
Maybe not everyone But ALMOST everyone looking for a new home prefers granite, and stainless steel. So from a resale standpoint having granite and stainless steel helps. It’s also pleasing on the eye.
Granite is not maintenance free, however if you seal it once a year and clean your kitchen after you use it! then its no different than any other counter-top except it looks a hell of a lot better.
IMO granite is not that expensive.
smarten
Mike Van H said “oh man I would feel guilty owning a range that expensive [$4.2K]. I would actually have to go take cooking lessons to use it just to justify its cost.”
That’s the point Mike. If you enjoy cooking, there are things you can do with a $4.2K natural gas professional stove/oven/range you simply can’t with your Kenmore electric counterpart. It’s not about status.
I can’t remember the difference in BTUs but I know professional cook tops feature 15K BTU burners which put out three times as much heat as your typical in-home counterpart. Thus translates into instant liquidation.
Plus the stovetop grates on commercial stoves typically abut one another which allow oversize cookware [large pots] to be used. If you do a lot of cooking and a professional kitchen is important to you, a professional range is a must! Just my opinion.
John Newell
What Smarten said!
MikeZ
Excellent post, Mike McG, but it looks like you strruck a few McStainless McGranite McPergo nerves in the audience.
move to reno?
I bought a very good oven/range that had a lot of stainless steel for about $800 about 5 years ago. It has 3 sizes of of burners: 15000 btu, 9000 btu (normal) and one simmer (6000 btu. The oven works great, very even and exact temperature control. I admit I like stainless steel because the finish will not degrade over time.
While it is nice to have a $4,200 range, a good cook can make do with one 1/4 the cost.
Regarding counter-tops, formica has come a LONG way and looks very good these days. I like it better than tile. The bottom line is that I would not make my home buying decision on what kind of countertop the kitchen has or its appliances. Quality of cabinets is more important.
Anyway, location, quality of construction, floor plan, orientation to the Sun are what to look for in a house. A kitchen can always be ripped out and re-done.
Josh
I just ripped out the carpet in my 1961 Southwest home – and guess what I found! Cork!
This was my first exposure of cork flooring, but man is it pretty, cool, and durable. My kids love it, and I do to. Much easier to clean than carpet, but softer than wood without scratching.
I’m now a fan of cork.
longerwalk
I’ve been wondering for a couple years now, is stainless the new avocado? You never know if you have ‘avocado’ until a few years too late, unfortunately.
There are so many good alternatives (i.e., easy to clean, durable, good looking) in many price points these days that no one should be talked into (or convince themselves of) ‘pergraniteel.’
Putting too much into one’s finishes, especially when renovating/renewing, can price one right out of the neighborhood OR reduce the return, too. OTOH, it’s imprudent to go ‘cheap’ just because it’s inexpensive.
Sully
One point about pergo. We put a better brand (Wilson Art) in our kitchen. Now my wife goes screaming into the night when she sees pergo or anything similar.
It is very hard to keep clean looking, water spots show. You need special cleaner, basically its not worth the time. You’re better off with linoleum.
GreenNV
Blogger Team, this has been one of the most enjoyable threads ever. Thanks for all you responses, experiences and input.
I’m particularly interested in your comments because I’m designing a house to build for for myself this fall. I plan to build with SIPs, probably PV electric, a lot of metal on the exterior (there goes the neighborhood). Green within reason – I’m not extending Sierra Pacific gas line for $100,000 so I can do a tankless water heater.
Some comments on your comments:
Cork ROCKS as a flooring material! It needs to get sealed or the joints will oil-can, but great on the feet. Real Linoleum is made from linseed oil and is very “green” (except the manufacturing process is so toxic that it isn’t allowed in the USofA). It isn’t what you remember from Grandma’s kitchen. Not much of a fan of stained concrete. Bamboo is hot right now, but the jury is still out on durability. Bamboo strand flooring holds up best, and the caramelizing process further hardens the material. Recycled rubber needs sealing, and attracts footprints. Try not to use a black background.
For counter surfaces, don’t overlook plastic laminate – it isn’t what you remember with gold flecks. It’s cheap, it’s versatile, it’s durable. You won’t find the good stuff at Lowe’s, but Formica, Abet Laminate’ (Italian), Wilsonart, and others have some really great looking product. Again, not a huge fan of concrete. Slate needs maintenance and sealing, but is beautiful and I’m thinking of making the trade off. And check out the phenolic lab type surfaces – pretty cool. Corian and the like makes me cringe – I can’t get over a solid surface with a warm “hand”, just feels weird to me. And you already know what I think of stainless steel!
I’ve had a post in the back of my mind for a while about “Next House”. What do we really want and need today? Why are 3 car garages morphing into 4 or greater in the era of $4 gas? Is a 10×10 bedroom a bedroom? Do sustainable building practices carry any weight, and what will you pay for them? Any input?
All I can tell you is that all my toilets will be wall hung – life is to short to spending it cleaning up the schmutz that collects under a commode.
OntheRocks
Jiminy Christmas Guys. Granite???
Totally low rent. Every double wide in Hawthorne
has granite countertops now.
Why would you want granite living in or near the granite Sierra?
I told my agent 3 weeks ago that if the houses she wanted to show me didn’t have pewter countertops with marble insets, I’m not looking!
Love the blog.
Allen Murray
As a builder of spec homes, I try to pick finishes that people desire. Finishes are trendy just like fashion. You all probably remember when brass fixtures and white washed cabinets were cool. A successful local builder where I grew up in Gardnerville used to go to LA a few times a year and bring back the latest trends. I remember when he came back one year and started using bull nosed drywall corners, he was really on the cutting edge=) As with most trends, they come and go. Square drywall corners are coming back along with cork floors from the ’50’s. 8′ tall doors are another example.
Personally I like granite counter tops. They are low maintenance and I like the fact that you can set a hot pot on it and don’t have to clean grout joints. I used Formica in my rentals and have problems with tenants burning the tops with pots, curling irons and doobies. Next time I will use granite as prices have really come down. Stainless steel is a pain to keep fingerprints off of, but I like the look. As for the $8K oven, I have one and like it a lot. Its nice having an indoor grill and griddle and the burner BTU’s are unbeatable. It also has burners that turn themselves on and off periodically so you don’t burn your sauces. Is it worth the money? Ask yourself that the next time you get into your Lexus. I’m with GreenNV in that I think the next trend in our area is going to me modern style architecture. There are few examples and I believe the demand is out there.
Tom
Talk about fads and trends in mass home construction, here are my main gripes about the way developers are building new tract home communities.
1. The designers must think all of us want a large number of small rooms. Not so, I say. We want a smaller number of larger rooms. Those 11 x 11 bedrooms in many communities are worthless.
1. Living rooms are advertised but they aren’t really living rooms. We want to duplicate our present living room, which is 20′ wide by 37′ deep, room for a piano, furniture, and a small combo entertaining a group of house guests. Haven’t seen that in Reno. There are “great rooms” that come close, but then the trade-off is they have little or no dining rooms and no living rooms.
2. Tiny yards with only room for a patio and barbecue. Why not build just a very few less houses in these new community blocks, but make the lots larger? I guess it is the economics and the goal of cramming as many sellable units onto available property as possible, but in our case, the result is lack of interest on this potential buyer’s part. Who wants an 8 ft. side yard, and then the neighbors; house just another 8 ft beyond the wall? A backyard view of the rear adjoining house so close it feels like they are part of the same family? You hear every bit of their patio conversations whether you want to or not. Why build that way? There are very few choices, I guess that is why people hire Allen and members of his profession to do it right. Some day I hope to find one builder doing a community project who puts 4,000 sq. ft. homes with large living, family and dining rooms on 1/2 acre or larger lots.
Gina
More miscellany about remodeling and design:
Concrete floors = backache. Besides what would you do in the event of a crack?
Laminate floors clean up with plain water or Murphy’s Oil Soap. You don’t need that stinky special stuff they tout. I never get water spots.
The best toilet? Toto with the soft-close seat – women of the world rejoice!
Oil Finished Bronze doesn’t show water spots as much as brushed nickel.
I wish I never have to hear about “Tuscan” design again. You know it’s played out when you can buy Tuscan sandwiches at the local burger chain.
I would love developers to start building modern again. But I think Middle America prefers traditional.
And? I love inner courtyards. What better place to put Fido when I go out for a show?
2sleepy
Gina – you are so right, Toto is absolutely the best toilet ever. I personally don’t like laminate floors because they tend to have an odd, hollow sound when you walk on them.
It seems Reno doesn’t really have it’s own architectural style, but is a sort of hodge podge of the worst of Northern California.
I really wish there were more decent arts & crafts style homes here, I would love to buy one and spend my weekends restoring it.
Kimo
Tom
Check out MLS 80000061 — 4400 SF on 1.8 acre lot.
The place has large rooms, well-built by R&B, nice views, and asking $204/SF. I’m NOT a realtor! My son lives across the street, and I’ve been in the house with the owner — Beautiful!