It was an interesting morning, and maybe there is some general market information to be gleaned from the experience. I spent a couple of hours at the Trustee’s Deed auction on the County Courthouse steps this morning. I really went to see how the big foreclosures on Renen & Bardis Foothills at Wingfield would play out – there were 3 scheduled, but all were postponed. In fact, of the 100 or so sales scheduled today, over 80% were withdrawn or postponed. Are the banks really looking seriously at restructuring these loans? Another one of the postponements today was 4045 Old Highway US 395. profiled in The $5,270,503.38 NOS back in October – pure coincidence.
I wrote about The Investors Club back in September, and they were out in force. It was pretty freaky to be lurking among these people that I only know through public records. It really IS a club. They all know each other, joke around when one of them makes a purchase, never bid on a property if someone else in the club is making a move (there is plenty of road kill for everyone), and they all seem to have inside information on what the actual first bid price is going to be (as opposed to the amount owning published in the NOS). Some of the properties that actually made it to auction today were for the full amount of the outstanding debt, and all of those went back to the bank. There were several where the starting price was reduced 30% or more – all back to the bank. But while I was there, the Club moved in on 2 properties:
3850 Brant – the outstanding debt was about $183,000, the bank’s initial bid was $51,100, and it was grabbed up at $51,101. The buyer had never seen the property, but knew the area well and had looked at aerial photos.
6300 Potomac – the outstanding debt was about $230,000, and it was snapped up for $130,000.01, one red cent over the bank’s initial offering. It was purchased 11/15/05 for $270,000, and there was a previous sale in June 03 for $153,000.
OK, both these properties are below the standards of the typical RRB reader. I think both were bought with rental in mind, not flipping. But here is some indication of where the market bottom may be, based on what the investors are willing to spend. And there are some deals here if you are cashed up and ready.
It was all a bit too depressing. These local yahoos with with the worst comb-overs, rugs and dye jobs I have in seen in one place were stealing Reno real estate. They are your future landlords or the sellers you will be dealing with. So I went over to the new Brickhouse Bakery at the West Street Market for a cuppa’ Joe and a brownie. RIGHTOUS! Give them a try.
November totals: 254 TDs, 365 NOSs. 514 NODs. It was a short month. December is picking up steam, though I wonder if the postponed Trustee’s Sales I saw will start skewing the data. Any thoughts?
smarten
Thanks for the blow-by-blow Mike.
We’ve had this discussion before. Why would any deed of trust beneficiary submit an opening bid of $51,100 when he/she/it is owed $183K and the beneficiary has given up his/her/its ability to pursue the deficiency [because of the election to pursue non-judicial foreclosure] against the trustor[s]? I guess in a vacuum I can understand that maybe, just maybe, it would encourage some third party to bid up the ultimate sales price. However when the final sales price goes for but $1 more than the opening bid which is 31% of the amount owed] and the bank does nothing, it makes no sense whatsoever. Sorry.
Even if the property’s fmv were but $91,500, why wouldn’t the bank continue to bid at least up to $91,500? Or why wouldn’t the bank take the property back and turn it around at fire sale for $91,500? It just makes no sense.
There’s something more going on here [“all seem(ed) to have inside information on what the actual first bid price (wa)s going to be as opposed to the amount owning (as) published in the NOS;” “the buyer had never seen the property”], and the fact “some of the properties that actually made it to auction…were for the full amount of the outstanding debt” are testament to this observation.
And since your “investor’s club” consisted of more than two bidders; yet none bidded against one another; does not support the conclusion “there (wa)s plenty of road kill for everyone.”
I don’t know the laws in Nevada but in California, it’s unlawful for anyone to conspire with another to deter anyone from bidding at a trustee’s sale. Assuming the law is the same in Nevada [which for purpose of this discussion I AM assuming], it sure smells to me like there’s a whole hell of a lot of collusion going on and it may very well extend beyond just the club.
If so, I wouldn’t be concluding that opening bids of 31% of the amount actually owed is the norm.
Now if you want to run an experiment, follow the money. Go to a foreclosure sale; wait for a property to come up for sale at a fraction of what’s owed to the bank [as published in the newspaper]; if a club member makes a bid, you outbid and see what happens. After all, according to you “these local yahoos…[a]re stealing Reno real estate!”
GratefulD_420
Mike – Thanks as always.
With regards to your question, “over 80% were withdrawn or postponed. Are the banks really looking seriously at restructuring these loans?”
I have one other data point to add to the craziness. I was going to go down mid-month to try for a house that I like. The day before the sale it was postponed by beneficiary. A great free site to track this is, fidelityasap.com. What is strange about this one is that others and I have tried to get shortsales done over the last year with no success (last offer was for $520k on $600k note). The people in this house have not paid for over a year and have over $38k in arrears. The current owners have no way to pay the mortgage even if reinstated, yet the bank (IndyMac) delayed on their own. All of the 28 sales were postponed that same day. Some by the bank, some mutual. So I can say the logic is one of two things:
(1) The banks don’t want to kick people out during the Holidays (as stated by several)
(2) The banks know that a real viable bailout is coming soon. One where the Goverment picks up the difference. Bernarke has given more urgency to STOP the foreclosures.
Either way.. inventory is high, existing Foreclosures are high, the backlogs of NOS’s are piling sky high & the local economy is… well I won’t go there.
I do think however the goverment is homing in on how to solve the solution and put a bottom on the market. It involves two steps, and will be fair to most.
(a) Directly Driving the interest rate on 30 yr conforming fixed mortgages down to 3.5 to 4.5%. This is being done and we will be there soon. This is not a free market. This is now a propped market by the feds.
(b) The second step is for the feds to backstop the difference between Orignal Loan value and Current Assesed Value by insurance if defaulted and unrecoverable. This will allow the “underwater” folks over to the affordable conforming loan rates.
These two steps will not STOP foreclosures however they would be a reasonably safe way to get a bottom started and prices from falling.
Incline JJ
Yes every borrower and home buyer now heard 4.5% and the will wait and not buy..Then some will want 4% some will hold out for 3.5%
you still have to qualify..when houses fall to the price where the average person in Reno-Sparks can afford the house with tax returns, pay check stubs, 3 months piti in the bank..then the market will start to bottom go sideways and recover
the banks do the write downs for 2 reasons..
1. accounting..our asset of 500k, your deed of trust, is now worth 275k. so regardless of what happens at the trustee sale, reverts to the benny or gets purchased 3rd party..they write down the difference
2. someone can come out to the sale and buy the property and they won’t have to deal with another foreclosed property..
I heard one of the big auctions that was trying to sell off some foreclosed property..out of 30 properties that where on the list the lenders accepted 3..
Paul
Mike, please take Smarten with you to the next courthouse auction. If the bank opened the bidding at 31% of the amount owed on the note and accepted just $1 more, there was obviously some kind of deal negotiated with the investor prior to the auction (while the trustor / borrower still owned the property). The borrower in this case has a cause of action against the bank for material interference, at a minimum. Were they to hire counsel and depose the parties involved (bank asset manager, the courthouse steps buyer) I suspect that some very shady, or possibly criminal practices might be exposed. How many other deals have been similarly negotiated? How did the asset manager justify this deal to his superiors? How was this deal in the best interest of the lender given the very low price and possible legal exposure? Is there any evidence that the asset manager received money under the table for arranging the transaction?
Incline JJ
Paul
No deal..its an accounting move..
Loan amount……….500k
total oweing………565k
property worth…….300k
banks opens bidding..275k
bank writes off difference
or buyer buys at 275k
It is right in the deed of trust note and on the foreclosure notice..benny can open the bidding at less then the owed amount
dave
Mike, I looked at Reno property for about a year, plans changed and didn’t buy. I still track some properties, many still on the market well over a year later. I spent a lot of time on the Washoe County records site and totally enjoy your efforts, research, and comments. Always was interested in what really goes on at the courthouse steps sales. Keep it up, there are probably a few lurkers like me out here, not part of the regular posters, but enjoy this site quite a bit.
smarten
I respectfully disagree Incline JJ.
First of all, I suspect that in most of these trustee’s sales, the beneficiary is really a different entity than the true owner[s] – i.e., the paper is NOT portfolio owned so the bank is nothing more than a servicing agent. Therefore it makes no sense for the bank to be thinking of “writing off” anything since it has no skin in the game.
Secondly, even if the bank were interested in merely “writing off” one of its assets, it could accomplish this just as easily by bidding in the full amount owed at the trustee’s sale and then afterwards, disposing of it at fire sale pricing. Or, why not try selling off the paper at a deep discount prior to a trustee’s sale? I suspect there’s a robust market in purchasing mortgages at 30 cents on the dollar.
Or if you don’t like this option, why not just go back to the trustor[s] and offer a new deal – write down the note obligation [by let’s say 60%] in consideration of…This is still a better deal for the bank and I’m certain many borrowers would be delighted if their lender volunteered such an option.
Thirdly, we’re talking about opening bids of roughly 30% of the amount owed. Given those loans presumably represented 80% LTV at origination [80% of $229K is roughtly $183K], we’re talking about properties selling at roughly 20% of their bubble values. Although we routinely speak on this blog of price reductions in the area of 35%-40%, 80% is absolutely off the chart!
Finally, remember Mike said the successful “club” buyers of these properties were able to STEAL them. We’re not just talking about fire sale pricing; we’re talking legal [or illegal] theft.
If it smells, sounds and looks like a duck then that’s exactly what it is. I think Mike’s on to something here.
Incline JJ
Lower the bid down to current or just below market value and hopes someone buys the property at the sale
so If the loan is 500k and the value is 250k if you put in the fully owed amount..no one will bid..
if you cut the opening bid down to 200k and you dump the property
Isn’t that better then hiring the realtor listing the property and having it sit with a street of other foreclosures and see who lowers the price the most the fastest to get it in contract
it makes perfect sense to me..nothing illegal about it..
Sully
U.S. nonfarm payrolls plunged by an astonishing 533,000 in November, the worst job loss in 34 years, the Labor Department reported Friday.
In a speech to the Mortgage Bankers Association on Friday, Assistant Treasury Secretary in change of the TARP, Neel Kashakri, said that banks will continue to supply credit as confidence returns to the markets.
Maybe someday these two departments will actually talk to each other!
Incline JJ
7% of the loans are now delinquent..
so what is 7% of the total amount of all the Reno-Sparks home inventory?
Phil
Looks to me like the investemnt club needs some compitition. Anyone can try to outbid them.
The illegal part (IMHO) would be if the investemnt club didnt get the bid the offer was withdrawn or postponed.
Now if only I pulled out of the stock market Oct 2007….
Phil
FYI about the R&B foothills land. Interesting story there, Those lots where intially a lot smaller, and then one day they started building up huge berms (some very large) into the common area to make the lots bigger. Personally I would be a little concerned about the stability of the land.
As I recall the homes above Astonomer Way have a problem with fondations craking. I wonder if there will be another problem here….
But then again I am not a geologist.
CommercialLender
The club/buyers probably called the bank beforehand to state they’ll buy asset X for some amount. They school the bank on just how much (or little) the house is actually worth, how much hassle and marketing time, repairs, time is money, etc.etc. The bank says they must go to foreclosure anyway for several reasons (legal title and their servicing agreeements or DOT says so), but we’ll see you there club buyers and we’ll open the bid at your price point. So, they take the advise of the club, list the opening bid at what the club told them to, and watch the club bid it up a buck. (Now, at this point the bank takes an actual cash loss, not a ‘writedown’, unless they previously wrote down the value below what they just sold for, in which case they magically record a ‘gain’.)
If there is any foul play, it might be a complicit guy or some money going to the asset mgr at the bank. The key here might be to a) know the asset well and make a case for how cheap the home will actually sell for and/or b) know the bank’s internal list of which homes have been marked down already and to what level. THen, a ‘club’ buyer can cherry pick.
I agree to give the ‘club’ some competition.
KB
The best way to stop this “cartel” is to bring your checkbook and outbid them in one dollar increments. I hear a lot of bitching but no actions. I say good for the club for picking up RE at these prices. They have great forsight and cash to make it happen
GreenNV
Who is the actual auctioneer employed by? Do the title companies / trustees get together and hire her?
I’m in no way looking down on the club. In fact I am in awe of them. They have the cash, have figured out the system, and are in the position to get some killer deals.
When a sale is cancelled, I believe it has to be republished before a sale is rescheduled. When a sale is postponed by the trustee or by mutual consent, it does not have to be republished. If you are not there on the steps, I don’t know of anyway to find out the new sale date.
There is no set order of sale. The properties are offered “when they are ready”. The auctioneer’s assistant was in her car getting last minute instructions from the trustees to cancel, postpone, or proceed. It is during this last minute action where the starting bid amount is finalized. The starting bid isn’t known ahead of time and the bidders need to have cashier’s checks. It leads credence to CommercialLender’s theory that there is a good deal of contact between the bidders and the lenders prior to the sale. It’s a fine line between pre negotiating a “deal” and an “understanding”.
JJ, there are about 117,000 SFRs/condos in the county. 7% in some level of default would be about 8200. There have been 2500 TDs and 5900 NODs so far this year. I would bet that we are really at 12-15%, based on the time lags involved.
GratefulD, thanks for the fidelityasap.com link. I’m looking forward snooping around it.
Incline JJ
I think loaning money was the worlds 2nd oldest perfession..buying foreclosures and tax defaults was number 3
I always know what the opening bids are??
no conspiracy theory on this..
The reo managers and asset managers do not do the foreclosure sale..They don’t even know about the property till the file hits their desks!!!
Paul
Phil, I own 40 acres in the vicinity of the R&B
foothill project known as the Estates at Mt Rose. Phase one is mostly built out, Phase 2 north of the 431 is in limbo due to the R&B Bakruptcy. There were proposals to have smaller lots and more common open space, but the neighbors lobied the county commission to impose 1-acre minimum lot sizes. Thus, unfortunately for those who see it everyday, they have created large and unattractive cuts and fills to accomplish flat 1-acre pads.
inclinejj
Long time ago when I first started scoping out the foreclosure sales I was waiting down at the courthouse..Two guys walked up and started talking to me..I was trying to buy a 2nd td that was going under..These guys started talking to me and said..well son lets go have a cup of coffee..I didnt know what the hell was going on They didn’t look thugish just kinda shady..
well they had the 3rd deed of trust and they didnt want to be foreclosed out..so basiclly they took me to the bank and paid me not to bid
common practice
also the sharks down in the bay area all pool the money together and buy properties..they try to shut out all other bidders
I would give in to auction mania cause I know what I want to pay at each sale
also the best way to control the say is to buy the notes..
I have some notes down here I have bought lately and lets say the banks are not in the festive mood cause of the holidays
inclinejj
Mike no one likes the Sharks till your a Shark
smarten
What you describe, Incline JJ, if it happened in California, is illegal. The fact others may do it does not make it any less legal.
The idea [in principle] is to create a level playing field so properties that go to foreclosure sale actually sell at their fair market value. When they don’t…
Well, we’re talking about one of the consequences.
So are you saying that you’re buying mortgages [before they go to sale] from banks? If so, I for one would like to hear your experiences because I agree with you; the best scenerio for the investor would be purchasing mortgages themselves prior to sale and if you have a path…
inclinejj
Ok 3 examples
1.this guy bought this building to move his own company into it..owner user..never did anything to the building..
The building was an italian restaurant, japanese restaurant, then a pathetic sports bar..all failed
the guy is NOD begging the lender to give him a couple months to rent it or sell it..problem is lender knows its been empty for 3 years..The design was bad..building needs to be torn down. Guy promised lender he would come current for the past 6 months..always an excuse..oh not to mention he borrowed a 2nd and 3rd and 4th and 5th and 6th loan to come current and never did..Made an offer to the bank to buy the first note..my buddy has a good contact with the bank being he has done business with them for 20 years..He has currently bought a couple properties off them this year. We made them an offer for the note a couple days ago and it should take them a few weeks to review the offer..btw we offered them 40 cents on the dollar for the note..will keep you posted
2. Property #2 is a 12 lot subdivision in town..Owner bought the property 15 years ago..slowly took the property thru town planning..the problem is..he never did this before and no one will loan him the money to start building the houses..being he missed the boat on getting construction money this project will sit dorment for the next 3-4 years..His note is up at the end of the month..we made the bank an offer for the note..80 cents on the dollar. bank excepted
3. Number 3 is a grand slam..25 acres property that will make a very nice subdivision..we came to the property owner 3 times to offer her a joint venture..she refused or just got greedier and greedier..this lady has searched the globe for the past 20 years I have known her to get financing on this property..queen equity stripper..we told her we would build her a free n clear home and cut her in 50% of the profits she wouldnt bite..now she is in foreclosure and bankruptcy..We might have a crowd for this property at the sale..I think it is going to be a bidding war..
Lots of different ways to skin a cat(catfish)
If any of you know San Mateo..Bohannon was a good friend of my grandpa..Bohannon would buy farm after farm when they went tax default..at one time he owned from highway 101 all the way up past 280..the only bigger land owner was Stanford..
Tom
Phil,you refer to an R & B bankruptcy in your post about the Estates at Mount Rose. I was aware of the chapter proceedings of the principals but not of any existing for the operating company; do you have a case number reference or the name of the U.S. trustee?
Thank you.
MikeZ
Even if the property’s fmv were but $91,500, why wouldn’t the bank continue to bid at least up to $91,500? Or why wouldn’t the bank take the property back and turn it around at fire sale for $91,500? It just makes no sense.
It makes plenty of sense … if the bank needs money.
Quite a few banks … well, the ones that are still standing, anyway … are desperate for capital/cash.
inclinejj
Mike
Sometimes the bennie lowers the bid to get a crowd of bidders..sometimes they let it go for the lower opening bid..I guess each bank has an internal formula..Keep in mind the auditors come into the bank they are freaking out..
would you rather have 91,500 in your hand today or list the property and wait 6 months to a year to get another 10k??
smarten
InclineJJ, you still haven’t addressed the fact that if we’re talking about an institutional lender’s trustee’s sale of a first mortgage, in all likelihood the lender is nothing more than a servicing agent with no skin in the process. Therefore it has no loss to write off; no asset to wipe off its books; and, no reason to dispose of the security today versus a year from now.
I’ll grant you that is probably not the case with the holder of a HELOC but then most of these mortgages are themselves being extinguished by a senior mortgage holder’s foreclosure. So I’m sorry; I just don’t see the “freaking out.”
inclinejj
Smarten
The lender or owner of the note hires the trustee and does an assignment and lets the trustee do the foreclosure..
So when the property gets the notice of sale after the 21 days..the trustee either calls the sale cancelled, postponed, goes to sale. The lender calls with the instructions and the amount due..The lender decides how much to start the bidding..if you notice the published newspaper ads for the notices of sale they have the opening bid..they say right above that..the Benny has the right to lower the bid..
So the day of the sale the lender either tells the trustee to call the crier (the person who stands at the courthouse steps) and says here are the instructions..either sale cancelled, postponed, or start the bidding..
The lender gives the amount and either tells the crier to bid for the benny..being the benny isn’t there but has an amount in mind
example..500k loan..borrower owes 545k and going to sale..lender can say..start the bidding at 250k but bid the property up to 280k..or sell it at 250,001.
The trustee only does the sale and has nothing to do with the opening bid price
Perry
How’s this for a discount?
2840 Sandestin.
Sold 7/05 for $652,394
Bought back by the bank for $350,200
Currently listed with an offer for $375,000
inclinejj
How’s this for a discount?
2840 Sandestin.
Sold 7/05 for $652,394
Bought back by the bank for $350,200
Currently listed with an offer for $375,000
Perry
That is a discount that makes my ears perk up
Any details of how big the house is? Square footage..My buddy a General Constractor in Southern Calfornia pulls out a notepad and his calculator and figures out..what will it cost me to build this house today..If he can buy it for under replacement costs..Its a good deal
Perry
The house is 5bd, 3bth, 3car on .6 acre and has 3127sq’. I think you can get the street view from Google maps. It was built in 05 by Bailey & Dutton.
Tom
I don’t see these deep discounts happening up in the Mount Rose corridor; there are some price reductions up there, but still the pricing is unrealistic, for the most part. Any readers have comments on why that area seems to be holding out at above-market prices, at a time when inventory up there is so high?
As an aside, I’m not sure that construction- replacement cost comparison per square foot is necessarily a prime decision-maker: location, first; then floor plan, second; then spacing between houses, third; then replacement cost, fourth. At least that’s how I am proceeding.
Sully
Tom, they must be waiting for the second coming of Santa Claus on Jan 20. 🙂
Reno Ignoramus
Tom, it’s because of the denial that exists among the sellers there. They are convinced that their property is Special. Their neighborhood is Special. It’s Different there, Tom. Just ask them. The fact the market is in a steep downturn does not apply to them and their Special house in their Special neighborhood. Their house is just better, and they “will be damned if they are going to just give it away.”
I am not being sarcastic, Tom. I know people who live there, and a couple of them are sellers. And this is how they think. This whole recession and this market downturn does apply to the well off buyer of their house, who is just a day away. The buyer who will gladly pay their asking price. Because, after all, their house is Special.
Sully
Tom, also you seem to be comparing the Reno high end market to the LA area high end market. I did the same when I first got here only with the Silicon Valley market.
I found out, this area is in a vacuum. Just because every other high end area in the country goes down in a recession/depression – this area won’t!
I hear that casinos employees are working two jobs because of layoffs in the casinos, some are on unemployment for a month. Business closings are happening here and there, unemployment going up, tax revenues down – but this area is immune to downturns in high end real estate.
Might be because this is the first time in Reno’s history it has so many over $1 mil houses that they don’t know how to deal with it.
It has been said several times on this blog, that there are not enough high incomes to support the high end housing – so it has to come from outside.
The Bay Area has its own problems right now and Sacramento is already (median) below the Reno area. Any other place they can come from?
Ralph
This area is not immune to downturns in high end real estate. Just because somebody has their over priced high end house on the market for 550 days does not mean they are a real seller. The high end of the Reno market almost does not even exist if we are talking about actual sales……..not just delusional “sellers” taking up space on the MLS.
If I put my 1990 Subaru on the market for $20,000 and refuse to lower the price for for 550 days, does that mean the market for 1990 Subarus “is immune to downturns” in Reno?
Phil
Ooops, I was refing to the R&B development in the highlands of spanish springs.
BanteringBear
Tom-
The high end, no matter what the locale, is always the last to fall. The reason being: they have the resources to hold out longer. They are, by and large, the stronger hands. The reason subprime hit the skids so soon is that these people had little, if any, resources to weather a downturn. In due time, the high end will crater. The top locations will fare a little better than your working class ‘hoods’, but will take a miserable beating nonetheless.
inclinejj
Some Areas of SF are holding the values..Some parts are falling..The SF Peninsula has the same going on..If a prime piece of property goes into NOD or foreclosure there is alot of high paying jobs in biotech that allow people to buy a good nice piece of real estate..
Doing loans for people on refinances we would do the appraisal even if the loan to value was 10% they would grumble about the value..
One old client called me up flipping out about the house down the street being sold for 800k and he said I could get a million..
One guy called me flipping out on zillow cause his 800k shack was listen on Zillow at 600k he wanted to call zillow and flip out on them
GratefulD_420
Tom,
The Mt. Rose corridor is getting close to the edge now. There are several housed both Callahan and Thomas Creek side that are lowering, lowering & lowering prices. Along with several NODs, shortsales and yes foreclosures.
As soon as some of these distressed houses get turned, the new comps will be set and the downfall will have begun.