RRB has something like 4000 unique readers each month at this point., yet the comments are dominated by 15 or 20 frequent posters. So this is an open invitation for our Lurkers to step into the spotlight and let your voices be heard.
Why do you read this blog? Are we providing compelling (or at least entertaining) information about the Reno real estate market? What could we do better to make what we post more useful to you? Are there topics and specific areas you would like to see us address? Any hot leads for a juicy post? (my email is under my head-shot on most pages on the blog)
I am WAY open to you comments and criticisms on my personal posts. Do I go too far when I call out specific properties? Or do you want me to go farther? I (almost) never post on a specific property with any malice – I try to make sure there are always a couple of interesting topics to be explored in each of them. It isn’t personal, just educational for the readers.
So come on, Lurkers (and even the Regulars), tell us what you think and how we can make RRB serve your interests better.
smarten
Well I personally would like to hear from Ron Bell. I’d like to hear how he can conclude that today’s prices can’t go any lower “because they’re not making dirt anymore,” yet they haven’t been making dirt for the last 1-1/2 years either and look what has happened! Come on Ron, step into the limelight.
And for you Mike, you haven’t gone far ENOUGH! Keep up the good work.
DowntownMakeoverDude
Hey dude what’s shakin? It’s like pulling teeth to get people to comment: Jakob Nielsen’s latest study finds that 90% of online community users are lurkers (read or observe without contributing) with only 9% of users contributing ‘a little’ and 1% actively contributing. Those are the stats all of us blog owners are up against.
Some quick suggestions I found have worked wonders on my site:
1. Get a poll. Many more people are willing to click a choice in a poll and click submit than to get involved in a lengthy discussion, and it’s another way to gauge reader opinions.
2. Interact more with Commenters: Diane and Guy do a decent job of this but only when they are asked a specific question, they rarely re-contribute an opinion or actively participate in a thought process that involves more than one comment in their own comment sections of their posts…and as for you Mr. Mac, very few new readers would know the name you post under (GreenNV I think?) in your own comments section, and thus it seems like you don’t interact with your own posts, which are often the most controversial.
3. Leave some of the posts more open ended, allowing your astute regulars to do some of the research or guess an item or take on a challenge in your posts.
4. Reward good commenters, comments and debates by specifically referencing them in the original post that spawned the comments. An example would be the Montage post…I would have updated the original post to reference the amazing discussion that ensued in the comments section to draw attention to it and attract more commenters.
5. Stalk your readers. I often keep an extra eye out for my commenters on other blogs or sites like RGJ or this blog, and then interact with them when I find them. This draws additional commenters from RGJ’s news blurb over to my own site. Also, comment on blogs your readers might own (i.e. Ken’s Urban Blog) It works!
6. Do weekly featured posts regularly. You’ve started to do this with your ‘Friday Post’ which tends to be a bit more off the wall/controversial than others. I would expand on that, maybe do weekly blind items (I guess, you guess style with real estate news or local issues).
Otherwise, you run a great blog and have waaaay more participation than most real estate blogs I read, so you also don’t want to change too much (like remove posts) or else you might lose the regular commenters you already have
gobagheera
I’ve been a lurker of the blog for about 3 years here, but have never posted. Love the unfiltered information on the local market and the entertainment value of disputes that go on here.
Diane, Guy, and JoAnn are great with their hard data and their real estate agent perspectives, but Mike’s call outs and insights are what makes me check this blog on a daily basis. It would be really nice to have one or more other contributors to the blog who had a keen interest in the market like Mike, but not necessarily an agent that may be bound by a realty firm.
Thank you guys for all the wealth of information posted here.
southworth
I am also a daily lurker for the past year and a half, using the site to get a feel for how things really are in Reno real estate. My husband and I plan to buy in your area (we would love to move in the next year, but have a property in Seattle we must sell first). We have found the data and the “insider” information shared on the site very helpful, except when the conversations turn somewhat personal and attacking.
I love the blog, and I often have questions, but as a layperson I hesitate to post for fear that my questions might come across as naive and idiotic. Some of the regular commentators can be quite intimidating in their responses.
An interesting future discussion might focus on providing examples of creative financing that is being done to move properties in light of the current market.
Thank you for soliciting lurker suggestions!
Sully
southworth – fear not! The regulars only attack idiotic comments such as real estate can only go up because God isn’t making anymore land, now is the time to buy and Reno will never go below a median of XXX,000 in your lifetime, etc.
Actual questions concerning Reno/Sparks are answered pretty throughly – if asked not dictated. Atleast thats what I have noticed. 🙂
inclinejj
I know I lurked for awhile on here then started posting..
Mike. Has always done a great job..keep up the good work
Arrowcreek has a bunch of problems currently going on..I would like to see Mr Bell come over and explain how he thinks the Reno-Sparks area has already hit bottom?
I seriously wonder if Mr. Bell has been thru a bad market cycle yet..
This is my 4th and I have learned a lot in each up and down cycle
Move to Reno
I don’t think we are at the bottom either. Reno will probably go down another 15% in 2009. However, it is probably a good time to start looking for that *special* property. One can always lowball the offer.
Real estate is all about location and timing.
Faust
I just stop by from time to time to see if the sky is still falling. An occasional bit of good news wouldn’t hurt… but I don’t think your regular comment crowd would allow that.
SouthBay
Been a reader of this blog for the past year or so. We love the Reno area and visiit 6-8 times year in the spring, summer & fall. Coming from Silicon Valley we find Reno to be a friendly place with plenty of activities. We have been routine visitors the past six years and have made some wonderful friendships with the locals.
Started looking for a condo last summer and stumbled upon this gem of a blog. With prices crashing and many developments fizzling out we have considered buying a condo and renting it out to a student for 9-months of the year and enjoying it during the summer as we are cold weather averse.
Lost Son
Grew up in Sparks, 75 to 87. Plan to return once I’m Navy retired. Most of my family is still in the area. So while I know the area, I am only occasionally a vistor and long removed from being a local.
Enjoy the blog for the insight and a personal aversion to the realty rhetoric.
Community focused articles have been good. Regional planning / outlook forecasts?
And to all of you who keep the tent poles up, that we might enjoy the show. Thank you
inclinejj
South Bay
Excellent plan..with record low interest rates..with the FHA lending still going strong and properties out there that break even or even make a few bucks a month..It is a good time to buy if you have full documentation and decent monthly income..
Back2Basics
Definite lurker here since Nov. 2007, when we found out we’d be relocating to good ole’ Reno. Found you on a Google search and have now gotten in the habit of checking in daily. I tried posting once, but after I got blasted for enjoying laminate kitchen counters (and not needing the high quality granite), I decided I like silently reading better. I know, I need a stronger backbone like Bantering Bear has.
We are currently renters now chiefly because of YOUR blog. THANK YOU!
Even though my husband and I have owned homes in the past, we were very naive when it came to real estate. I’ve gotten quite an education here in the last year. We are starting to patiently look for a good family home (possibly fixer or foreclosure) in the area.
What I love to read about the most:
1. Debates on whether it’s good to buy yet or not, and what the future holds for real estate.
2. Which Washoe communities and schools may be good to raise a family.
3. Events and good causes that are happening in our communities.
4. Nitty-gritty basic real estate info for some of us naive newbies. (best ways to shop for agent/lender, what to look for in a property/price, warning signs, etc).
4. Personal stories about what goes right (or wrong) in the purchasing process of short sales or foreclosures.
Thanks again for all your help and getting the truth out there. Even though most of us don’t post, this blog is making a HUGE difference.
EvilTwin
I want to hear more of what Guy thinks, not just the statistics he knows. I know he has a lot of insight to offer, but he comes off a bit – er – constipated at times.
I want more of Diane’s reports from the trenches. In fact, I just want more of Diane.
I want JoAnn to come out of her shell and tell it like she sees it. She is the true veteran on this site, and her insights would be intriguing.
I want someone to engage Wayne, Mira, Juan and Ron to make offers on Mike’s house. That would be a painfully awkward open house and I want an invitation!
So other than Guy needing bran, Diane needing motivation, and Mike needing a muzzle, this is a pretty cool site. Thanx.
DownButNotOut
One thing I like is you show the comments in the corner of your blog, so those of us that check in regularly can see any new activity (Mike are you listening?)
From being a reader for the last 6 months I realize many commentor’s have an agenda they’re inflexible with. But just why I think the letters to the editor are the most interesting part of a newspaper, I will continue to read there avidly.
Like you it gets old the same people commenting the same way they always do, which limits discussion. Many seem like they’re the only expert in the real estate market. I’m not sure who Ron B is but for goodness sake, isn’t voicing your opinion that ‘their not making any more dirt’ a little old?
By the way, there is a school of thought that, wait, oh yea – their not making any more dirt! So opportunities in this market are the best they’ve been in years. Sticks and mortor, let alone availabilty of prime locations haven’t been available like this for awhile. But how many writers actually successfully invest as opposed to commenting about it. Those would be worth hearing here too.
Lastly although many of the readers like to point to save your cash, lowball and buy in a year or two, I am from the school that teaches me to run when others walk. It’s consistently proved profitable in my experience. If you getting your information here from commentors about buying, maybe staying out of the market is wise.
Seijuro
I too have been a lurker for about 2 years. No doubt this has been an excellent real estate blog about Reno-Sparks for all that time. I too wish Diane and Guy would share more of their “in the trenches” stories, like they used to. I recall one post where Guy told the story of treking buyers all over town, who finally decided on a new house at about 10% off asking. Guy called it a “great deal” as I recall. The firestorm that ensued as to whether that would prove to be great deal was just excellent. (I think that it turned out not to be such a great deal).
I understand that Guy and Diane have a living to make, but it really does seem that this has become more of Mike’s blog especially over the past several months. Even Reno Ignoramus and Bantering Bear seem to have faded away a bit, at least in the sense of their sometimes caustic insight. Also, there appears to be no whipping boy anymore since derrick has essentially disappeared.
Let’s face it. Realtor hype sites are a dime a dozen. Witness Chase Nation which is now nothing more than a bunch of flimflam realtors passing the koolaide back and forth. That has never been true for the RRB. Maybe it’s just too hard to keep a blog going with the intensity this one used to have. Three years is actually a long time for a blog to go.
randomwalk
I’ve been reading this blog for well over a year…because I’m a Californian who bought a second home in The Village (Somersett) back in 05 as a prelude to moving to Nevada. Obviously, my timing could have been better!
The value for me is in planning our next move…sell one of our houses (at a big loss) and consolidate in one place? Or maybe keep making the payments and hoping for a bottom? The recent $219k asking for an originally $460k Village house gives me some hope that the market will begin functioning again. At some price, buyers will appear. Hell, maybe I’ll buy a second one!
I do enjoy the bashing of us idiots who bought near the top…makes me feel special. Still, with the ever growing recession, this becomes less of a spectator sport all the time. So all the insight I can get is great.
When all is said and done, I like Reno a lot and plan to retire here down the road.
konarina36
I, too, have been mostly a lurker although have posted a couple of times when I couldn’t help myself! We were interested in buying a small house or condo in Reno but have since given up.
First, the houses we saw in Reno were shoddy ticky, tacky shacks, not worth anywhere near what the owners were asking. Most seemed to have been thrown up in a few days with no thought except to get them sold ASAP with voodoo loans.
Second, most of the houses are too similar with nothing different about them or anything to recommend them. There was no individuality or sense of stye and most of the floor plans did not make good use of the space, few had skylights, few had adequate storage, and some were like dark dungeons with few windows.
Third, we did not particularly want to buy in a “development” but that seems to be just about all that there is in Reno.
Fourth, most of the houses we saw had poor workmanship, were too close together, had cheap materials and were too similar to every other house on the block.
Admittedly, we were not looking at million dollar houses, but good design is no more expensive than poor design. And, sadly, most of what we saw in Reno was definitely poor design.
As things stand now, we probably won’t buy in Reno because our plans have changed, but it was a good learning experience and I still like to read this blog to find out what is going on.
samm610
I started reading when I saw info about my former employer being posted on here, to give my boss some insight on what folks were saying about the company and the market in general. Having worked for someone who built in Reno / Sparks / Fernley for the past 10 years, it was important to stay current on what was going on, and this blog certainly tells it like it is, and touches on all points. I don’t post much, because a lot of what is said is so far over my head and experience, but it helps to read it and I usually feel a little smarter after visiting. I don’t work for R&K any longer, but I do still like to come and read this blog since I keep in touch with my former boss and care about his future.
EdBear
I’ve been reading the blog for about one year now and posted very rarely. My wife and I have flirted with a second place in Reno/Sparks for about five years now. We’ve offered and retracted out at Red Hook, offered and had the development fall through with the condo development across from the Nuggett in Sparks and kind of offered at Toscana in Sparks only to be soundly rejected (hooray).
Although a second place isn’t in the cards for now with the stock market problems, it may raise it’s dirty head sometime in the future.
Keep up the good work — it’s entertaining and enlightening.
Now, can we just clean up downtown Reno?
KingBud
Usually reading the articles, some of the comments. I’ve posted a couple of times.
Mike’s posts are the most interesting and informative, as a local investor and being a good researcher he shows through example the ridiculous financing of properties in the area that commonly took place.
More commentary from Diane and Guy and Joann would probably add some balance to the site.
Although my personal view is that reno fair value will return to well below $100/sq ft (right now it is $140/sq ft according to Trulia), I’m interested in reading the views and arguments of those who think otherwise.
The site has a tendency to become too one-sided and perhaps pessimistic, and I’d generally like to see others who perhaps have a different point of view feel comfortable posting as well.
But overall an informative site.
PatentGuy
I drop by infrequently, but I usually end up scrolling through many of the posts and comment sections. I also wish diane would post a bit more (she seems distracted). It’s dun to go back to old posts from a few years ago in view of what we now know.
We plan to buy a 2nd home in Reno-Tahoe area once the RE fallout dust settles (more Calif income tax refugees). Looks like 2009 will be a good time to check out and learn more about the specific neighborhoods and options. Continuing posts about the bubble and price deflation are getting old and less interesting to me; yes, should not be ignored, but hardly a newflash anymore. I think your blog can/should have more posts that concentrate on finding bargains for buyers. You realtors will like that, since you can concentrate on selling real estate instead of the whole bubble pop and fallout. Does not mean you have to be a NAR cheerleader type. Just the opposite – you can be pro-buyer (akin to Jim the Realtor’s blog for north county San Diego, http://www.bubbleinfo.com).
Good luck. (Cheer up, Diane).
Penny
We are moving back to Reno soon after several years in Europe and really appreciate the honesty of this blog (so lucky we sold in 05). It is a really helpful look at market conditions and how the credit crunch is affecting Reno housing. We appreciate that you offer consumers helpful information and treat the realty business in a very professional, fresh new way. Thank You!
inclinejj
As far as North San Diego county..Carlsbad and Carmel Valley(Not the Carmel By Monterey) has been slammed..The investors I know in the area won’t touch anything down there.
Plus one of the big builders walked off 12 subdivisions they had going when the line of credit from the bank got pulled..
Yes you can get what looks like a great deal down there..Pay 500k for a house that was 950k a couple years ago but the market down there has 2 more years at least to go down
billddrummer
Have been a reader for a bit more than a year and began contributing soon after, mainly because my personal situation mirrored many of the stories told about the foreclosure morass that began last year.
I appreciate this blog for its insight and timeliness.
I believe that Diane has moved out of the area which is why she’s not as regular a contributor.
I expect another 15% drop in median prices this year, continued high foreclosure rates, and more NODs filed on higher dollar homes because of the Option-ARM resets starting to hit the market. Even low indices for interest rate resets don’t matter if your mortgage was written at a spread of 3.5-4% over the index. For jumbo Option-ARMs, payments will rise by 60-100%, depending on the start rate, recast percentage, and index.
Most people don’t have an extra $1000-$2000/month in their budgets to make the new payments, and values have dropped so much that refinancing is virtually impossible.
Look for better deals on nicer homes in 2009.
Thanks again for keeping this blog up!!!
MikeZ
Let’s face it. Realtor hype sites are a dime a dozen.
The vast majority or “realtor” sites are realtors co-stroking each others’ massive egos with sports metaphors (“you really hit that one out of the park!”) and claiming to be having a great year and being busier than ever … while also having enough free time to spend 4 hours a day blogging.
LOL.
Marketing 101: act strongest when you’re weakest. When you’re losing your shirt, when you’re hemorrhaging cash, pretend you’re having a great year!
This blog isn’t like the others, where the Kool-Aid flows 24/7. This blog is better. It’s honest. It’s special. It’s refreshing.
MikeZ
[Edited]
Let’s face it. Realtor hype sites are a dime a dozen.
The vast majority of “realtor” sites are realtors co-stroking each others’ massive egos with sports metaphors (”you really hit that one out of the park!”) and claiming to be having a great year and being busier than ever … while also having enough free time to spend 4 hours a day blogging.
LOL.
Marketing 101: act strongest when you’re weakest. When you’re losing your shirt, when you’re hemorrhaging cash, pretend you’re having a great year!
This blog isn’t like the others, where the Kool-Aid flows 24/7. This blog is better. It’s honest. It’s special. It’s refreshing.
CommercialLender
Different topic, but I know I’ll get valuable feedback from RRB:
My wife and I are considering a Tahoe home, likely Truckee or Incline. Values are coming down fast, meaning we can afford more than we could before. But, I can’t help but be lured by the idea of a higher end fractional, say a 1/6th share of a much nicer place, larger, more bedrooms, all the nice furniture, etc. for an entry point that is at or lower than a lesser nice, must-be-furnished place that would sit vacant most of the time anyway. I like having the ability to come up anytime I would like, but likely would not do so enough to make a full 100% ownership worthwhile.
Thanks for any feedback in advance.
smarten
CL, No, No, No and NO!
It is highly unlikely you will ever, ever, ever find a fractionalized interest proportionately priced at FMV [generally it’s about 120%-130% of FMV], let alone at today’s presumably depressed pricing. Most agents will tell you a price premium is in order for the “convenience.”
Further, you won’t find purchase money financing [unless you want to take out a HELOC on your principle residence] which means a fast moving ARM w/a ten year bullet versus an historically low fixed interest rate loan.
Further, you won’t find a fractionalized interest that will let you “come up anytime.” There will be rules that basically turns it into a time share.
Further, you’ll likely pay exhorbitant “management” fees [marketed under the guise of concierge or convenience] for the privilege.
Further, how about going into partnership with 5 other sets of strangers [and their families, baggage and financial problems of their own]?
And did I mention there’s essentially no secondary market unless you want to offer your interest for about 50% of what you paid [before commissions and costs of sale].
From prior posts, you’re far, far too intelligent an investor to ever fall for the idea of a fractionalized share.
Reno Ignoramus
March 17, 2006. Diane’s post about “Dreamslice”.
Check it out CL and Smarten and report back.
Yea, Iv’e been around this blog too long…..:)
longerwalk
Bought a house here in 2006; down from the high, knew it was going to go down but had reasons for wishing to own.
Know a group of people who sporadically need information about moving here–real estate, job market, etc. Send ’em here to get the straight skinny, as my dad would have said.
Try to engage in conversation, but evidently my brand of talk doesn’t fly well here, which is okay.
JoAnn is virtually silent, Diane seems way too MIA these days, and Guy could be a little more present, too. It looks like Mike is posting to keep things moving when the others are busy–or maybe out of breath?
The articles like those on short sales (atta boy, Guy!) and current market issues are very good.
Articles about good things in the community now & again are nice, esp. when new stuff is happening (like the Somersett area shops way back when). Yeah, things are kind of rotten right now, but Reno can and should come back better. That would be a post–How to make that happen w/o relying on the dear ‘ole government dollar.
DownButNotOut
Yes, yes yes. Why not buy 1/5th if you only plan to use it 1/5 of the time?After all, paying a premium is worth it, since you’re owning your time for only 20% of that premium, the convenience is awesome. Second homes should all be bought this way as far as I’m concerned if your plan is to use it. I’ve even gone so far as to rent my primary house out during the time I am at my vacation house or timeshare, as I already know my dates.
I’m a big believer in partial ownership, and for that matter timeshares. Say what you will but they have treated me and my family very well over the years. They’re not for everybody. I don’t buy planning to sell,but I buy in nice areas, I have nice places to go to, and my kids will too after I’m gone. For every problem mentioned above there are easy solutions – or else that ISN’T the right deal.
No it’s not for everyone, but I can tell you it’s been good for me.
Murray
Yes, my husband and I are both lurkers. We visit the site for awareness and information about the market. We will be buying a house in the near future and want to make the best possible decision when it comes time. We are fearful right now (obvious economic reasons), but once the time is right we’ll be prepared. We typically don’t read the other comments or engage in rhetoric, but are interested in what the website has to say from month to month. It is also fun to look in the archives to read the past speculations and see the difference between then and now.
smarten
RI –
All my criticisms apply to Dreamslice.
Setting aside all of the structural problems I have with fractional shares, take a look at the web site which features a new 2,677 square foot condo across the street from Northstar Village [ http://dreamslice.com/properties/5120 ]. 1/8th shares are being offered at only $475K/each. Gee, that’s only $3.8M for the whole [BTW, that translates into about $46.5K in annual property taxes (so your share would be only $475/month)]! Does that sound like a good deal to ANYONE? How about you DownButNotOut?
Now I’m not saying the following property is worth the $498.5K asking price [roughly the same as our first example], but for comparison purposes, it is located directly across the street from the first, and actually IN Northstar Village. It is brand new, partially furnished, a luxurious Penthouse level Village studio condo [468 square feet], and it’s roughly 13% of the cost of our first example.
To me it’s just like stringing out a car loan over seven versus three years just to keep the monthly payments lower so you can buy a more expensive model. To each his/her own!
smarten
Forgot to include the link to the second property [ http://myagent.kw.agentachieve.com/default.aspx?ID=10170&page=http%3A%2F%2Fmyagent.kw.agentachieve.com%2Fsearch%2Fpropdetail.aspx%3Fid%3D10170%26listingID%3D24-1-2702236%26fromAA%3Dyes ].
Also I didn’t share the exhorbitant HOA dues and special revenue district assessments applicable to both. At least you stand a chance in hell of actually securing a purchase money mortgage for the second property.
3 Wombats
I stumbled onto RRB when we flew into Reno a year and a half ago to look at houses and looked at one that Diane had listed. It was the best one we looked at as well as the best priced. I was intrigued! So I looked up Diane, because we obviously needed a different realtor and found the blog.
I only post when I just can’t help myself. We have never rented until we got to Reno and have just re-leased for a year and couldn’t be happier about it. Selling our last house, out of state, was brutal, but we sold and at a profit. Thanks for everyone who does contribute. It was the comments on this site that prompted us lower the price and sell the house instead of hanging out waiting for the perfect buyer that our realtor kept telling us was out there.
What I love are the honest comments about the market, the discussions, and the data, the cold raw numbers that everyone analyzes just a little bit differently. I check the blog about everyday and have had some of the best laughs in a long time. Loved the deleted “Foreclosure Rage”.
inclinejj
CommercialLender said, in December 29th, 2008 at 4:40 pm Different topic, but I know I’ll get valuable feedback from RRB:
My wife and I are considering a Tahoe home, likely Truckee or Incline. Values are coming down fast, meaning we can afford more than we could before. But, I can’t help but be lured by the idea of a higher end fractional, say a 1/6th share of a much nicer place, larger, more bedrooms, all the nice furniture, etc. for an entry point that is at or lower than a lesser nice, must-be-furnished place that would sit vacant most of the time anyway. I like having the ability to come up anytime I would like, but likely would not do so enough to make a full 100% ownership worthwhile.
Thanks for any feedback in advance.
Everyone now and then I would see a listing for a house 1/3rd share..or 1/2 share..for sale..I would always wonder..Have the people exhausted all avenues to getting a loan on the property, are they desparate, is there something wrong where they can not sell the property?
If you go down 267 highway and the corner of Tahoe Blvd or Highway 28 the condo’s on the beach where sold seasonal 1/6th shares and 1/12 share..
My question is..does the share rotate or do you get the same time period every year..
Plus in most cases you buy a property that 6 or 12 other people live in..You also don’t know if they rent their portion out also..
Bad idea as stated above..
Also no one will loan on these..Even if they are set up as TIC Tenants in Common..Lenders will only lend on TIC units in areas where they are common like San Francisco..
My advise keep looking in the area you want to buy start getting to know the neighborhoods and pick an area..The market will have alot of distressed properties coming on the market in 2009 and 2010
Dylan Darling
4000 visitors a month. Congrats! Keep posting, and visitors will follow your blog. Even if they don’t comment, they’ll think of you when its time to buy or sell.
Tom
Are those 4000 “hits” or 4,000 separate visitors? If those are hits measured by a software counter, some of us may account for several of them per month. I am curious about the actual number of different readers.
CommercialLender
Smarten, DBNO, IJJ – thanks. Here are my thoughts, and they originated from when I owned in Somersett and briefly tried to get friends to buy-in (abandoned the idea and sold for other reasons, but it was very fortuitous timing in retrospect).
I can only use the place ~ 3 weeks plus some weekends per year. Sure, I’d like the ad hoc ability to come up whenever I have a window of opportunity, but also don’t want the responsibilty of a mostly empty place. So, I could rent numerous times from a usual place (I have been for many times in the same home in Incline) or I could buy a fractional if I can mitigate the risks.
I just don’t like lugging all my stuff up the hill each time, and would otherwise prefer to have a storage locker or cabinet with kids toys, clothes, non-perishables, skis, etc, kept there in the place. Private fractionals might permit this, but not an institutional Dreamslice or Old Greenwood timeshare. And yes, they are overpriced in my opinion.
My kids are all so little now that hotels and ‘normal’ timeshares are just not comfortable. And, if I hold on to it for the next 15 years, they will have perpetual memories of the fun place they ‘grew up’ in up in Tahoe. And, it could be kept in the family if need be.
The cost of a decent home in Truckee might still be $450K-650K, then need to be furnished and maintained. But I could pay cash for a 1/6th timeshare and have hopefully most of the bugs worked out in an existing, proven partnership agreement. And, if they think a 20-30% upcharge for this is in any way warranted, well, they’ll sit for another year and not sell. There are MANY on the market, just sitting, and therefore cash is king for a good deal, and probably mandatory for lending purposes in this arrangement.
As for HOAs and expenses, I would clearly steer away from corporate or institutional fractionals, but if I could find the right private party and get to know them, a fit might be made with reasonable costs in place.
My true issue is the loan and the deed/title. If I pay cash, how am I assured they’d never default on any loan? Doing a partnership structure is likely the cleanest method, rather than a TIC. Anyway, the title and loan arrangement are likely the highest risks and might be difficult to mitigate.
I guess in the analyses there are many risks to this type of ownership arrangement, but if mitigated and/or accepted, then I can see value in it. Not for everyone, but not to be written off entirely either.
Happy new year, all. Here’s wishing for a great 2009 for all the readers/contributors on this blog!
smarten
CL –
You state you:
Can only use the place ~ 3 weeks plus some weekends per year – So I say RENT. It’s far cheaper. There are many, many nice rentals here in Incline Village that sit absolutely vacant but for the week after Christmas; Martin Luther King and Presidents’ Day weekends; the week of 4th of July and maybe a week in August. Steer clear of these time periods and you’ll have the pick of the crop!
Don’t like lugging all your stuff up the hill each time, and would prefer to have a storage locker – I say rent a locker for the season.
Want to hold on to your wish place for the next 15 years – sounds to me like you have to give up on this one. The ONLY guaranty would be if you owned a place 100% and could control its use/disposition for the next 15 years. But it sounds like you don’t want the baggage – so…
Can pay cash for a 1/6th timeshare [I’m assuming 1/5 (as opposed to 100%) of $450K-$650K] and have hopefully most of the bugs worked out in an existing, proven partnership agreement – there is no such animal. Ever hear of a forced partition sale? What about a divorce? What about a bankruptcy where your new partner is a Trustee in Bankruptcy who’s job is to liquidate assets? What about a right of first refusal where you don’t have the cash [nor desire] to buy out your problem partner[s]’ interest[s]?
Wait until delusional sellers get real and throw away the 20-30% upcharge – you’ll be waiting forever.
Clearly steer away from corporate or institutional fractionals – that basically takes you out of the market.
Pay cash, but cannot be assured your stranger partners would never default on a loan or other obligation – you CAN’T be assured. And when they default on taxes, insurance, utilities, capital improvements, HOA dues/assessments, etc., you end up holding the bag; again, with a bunch of strangers.
Accept the many risks to this type of ownership arrangement if mitigated – you can mitigate the potential risk by having each of your stranger partners post some type of cash bond or security. But the odds of every finding willing and able partners – good luck!
So in the final analysis, either buy something yourself or with trusted friends/business associates where you can truly mitigate your risks, or save your money [remember, cash is king] and become a renter. If you just want a closet to store your stuff, e-mail me; I’ll become your landlord.
Good luck!
billddrummer
To CL,
I applaud you for exploring this alternative. I wish I had had that kind of foresight when my kids were small. The memories they have now don’t include Tahoe.
I’d structure it with an LLC comprised of the other parties, with the LLC as the borrowing entity for any mortgage. More than likely, your interest would be accomplished through a family trust (easier to keep separate) than with you and your wife as principals.
I agree with you that steering clear of onerous HOA and maintenance fees is a good idea. And if one entity purchases the unit, you can apportion the time among the other members, possibly as an addendum to the operating agreement.
Just my thoughts.
GoBears
I’ve lurked for at least a year – we own a home in the southbay near San Jose and are looking to buy a second home as an investment/rental.
Your blog is great for the Reno area along with the citydata forum (add Las Vegas also as a good forum). There are also some excellent blogs in Southern Ca that I read also (bubble markets, Jim the Realtor).
The writing on this site is very honest, entertaining and useful – keep up the good work!
smarten
CL –
30 years ago I put one of these together up at Lake Tahoe. A 3BD/3BA plus loft condo where there were four of us; each holding title as tenants in common. We all knew each other and were friends, and we had an onerous agreement designed to keep the relationship together. The idea was that we’d all share equally in the expenses and if everyone showed up at the same time [which only happened once in 30 years], there’d be room. Dividing the costs [when they were truly cheap] four ways meant we didn’t have to rent the place out and it was basically available to any of us anytime.
Although everyone was on the same page on day one, over the years that changed. After a bankruptcy, three divorces, two new wives [with their children and extended families], the loss of a principle residence [meaning this fractionalized interest was the only real property this one partner owned], only one of us had the same vision we all had had on day one. Needless to say, it became a very ugly divorce; one which I wouldn’t wish on anyone.
Two of us were cashed out by the other two [as a result of extortion], and I haven’t spoken to my former friends in years. And you’re contemplating a blind relationship with strangers? Personally, I think you’re out of your mind unless you’re able to buy in at 50 cents on the dollar so you’ve got far less to lose.
FWIW, just my personal experience long before anyone even thought up the idea of fractionalized interests.
inclinejj
An associate of mine put together the same thing with his brother..50%-50% partners on a Tahoe Donner home..Lets see they never agree..The brother sometimes forgets to kick up the rents, when it comes to paying the monthly bills every 3 months my associate has to call him and remind him of the monthly bills..Only to hear him grumble and write him a check..
It is a very nice home but they are not getting along..instead of switching where every year it rotates over the holidays they fight over who gets the house for that weekend..
Like Smarten said above..people change and unforeseen events sometimes happen
DowntownMakeoverDude
To Tom: Mike mentioned ‘unique visitors’. By traditional standards this means each month, if you visit this site once, you are a unique visitor; if you visit it again within that same month’s period, you are just counted as a ‘visit’. So 4,000 unique visitors each month means 4,000 unique people visit the site each month. The ‘unique’ part of the equation resets each month.
smarten
CL –
Here’s an example of what I’m talking about [ http://reno.craigslist.org/reb/967351964.html ]. A home like you’re describing in Old Greenwood. Onl $105K for a 1/17th share!
Problem is this fractionalized interest is essentially worthless. The seller has been trying to sell this interest for at least 1-1/2 years. A 30% drop in sales price and she STILL can’t unload it! Although the seller is an “agent,” the interest is her own personal property so for all intents and purposes it’s not a corporation or institutional owner.
So if you don’t care about resale value, I say go for it. But if you’re an “investor,” IMO you should stay clear!
Gina
I love this place – I wish there was a blog like it for L.A. metro. Yeah, right. That’s too big of a piece for anyone to chew off.
I’ve posted a few times. Californian who wanted to move to Reno here. Timing wasn’t right due to business concerns. And right now, me and the spouse don’t know what the heck to do, LOL!